Field Trip | 11.24.20
Going into a cannabis dispensary can be confusing. Not only do patients juggle the many strangely-named strains of the plant, but they also have to figure out how to ingest it. Do they smoke the bud? Use a topical cream? A wax concentrate? Well, this week on “Growing Forward,” our crew grabbed their mics (and masks) for a field trip to a local Albuquerque dispensary & manufacturing facility to answer some of these questions. Listen, as we talk to the brains behind the cannabis products that patients all around the state rely on!
Episode Music:
Christian Bjoerklund – “Hallon”
Poddington Bear – “Good Times”
Blue Dot Sessions – “Detailing”
Growing Forward Logo Created By:
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“Growing Forward” is a collaboration between New Mexico Political Report and New Mexico PBS, and is funded through a grant from The New Mexico Local News Fund.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
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Eric Merryman: The initial efforts and ongoing efforts helped my mom. It brought her some peace. It brought her the ability to not be sick all the time.
Dominic Garcia: A lot of folks, you know, they might have dabbled in the 70s or 80s. This might be, you know, a return to the use for pain relief. So, you know, the science of medical cannabis has come a long way.
Megan Kamerick: The science of medical cannabis has indeed come a long way, and that may leave many New Mexicans overwhelmed by all the different strains and interesting names, as well as their uses and the entire retail experience.
Andy Lyman: This week, we take a field trip to a local dispensary and a manufacturing facility to show you what they’re like and the challenges these businesses face as new mexico again prepares to take up the issue of legalizing recreational-use cannabis.
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Andy Lyman: I’m Andy Lyman, Reporter with New Mexico Political Report.
Megan Kamerick: And I’m Megan Kamerick, Correspondent with New Mexico PBS, and this is Growing Forward, a podcast dedicated to the cannabis industry in New Mexico. This project is also a collaboration between NMPBS and New Mexico Political Report.
Andy Lyman: The medical cannabis program has been around for years now in New Mexico, but it can still be daunting to navigate your way through the system after getting a medical cannabis card.
Megan Kamerick: That’s right. And now there is new pressure for lawmakers in New Mexico to also approve the legalization of recreational-use cannabis. That’s because Arizona voters approved an initiative legalizing recreational use just a few weeks ago. If New Mexico wants to capitalize on the revenue benefits of legalizing the drug, the time is definitely now.
Andy Lyman: And, if they’re successful, that’s a whole new group of people trying to find their way through the complicated maze of dispensaries, strains, doses and much more.
Megan Kamerick: That’s why we headed out of the studio this week, to introduce you to that world and all its nuances.
Andy Lyman: You know, Megan, I grew up watching PBS, especially Mr. Rogers’ Neighborhood. Today’s episode actually reminds me a little of when Mr. Rogers would take viewers to a factory or some other kind of field trip.
Megan Kamerick: It does sort of feel that way… Although I’m trying to get the picture of Mr. Rogers going to the cannabis store out of my head. Anyway, a few weeks ago, we got a tour of an Albuquerque cannabis dispensary. We also got to see a manufacturing facility where a company makes extracts and edibles. Believe it or not, it really is similar to those field trips on Mr. Roger’s Neighborhood, but instead of watching how crayons are made or seeing how cows are milked on a dairy farm, we got the lowdown on gummies, chocolate, honey extracts…. There’s just a huge variety and honestly, Andy, I just had no idea.
(traffic sounds)
Andy Lyman: We are right out front of a dispensary in Albuquerque, called R. Greenleaf. We’re right, sort of, Washington and Menaul area. And, it’s actually part of a little strip. Looks like right next door there’s a boot store. And, I’m not sure what’s at the end, but it’s sort of unassuming. Did you know that this was here before?
Megan Kamerick: Not until you told me about it.
Andy Lyman: Yeah.
Megan Kamerick: i’ve driven by it a million times. It’s very non-descript.
Andy Lyman: The windows are, sort of, tinted in a way that’s mirrored. You can’t see inside. It’s just part of, sort of, a little commercial stretch of Menaul, I’d say.
(door opens and closes)
Andy Lyman: Megan, when we first walked in the door, you almost immediately noticed something different…
Megan Kamerick: Yeah, the smell… It was strong and very distinct – way more intense than being at a random concert.
Andy Lyman: It was very clear we had just walked into a dispensary, before we could even see the menu or display cases. But, visually, I wonder if anyone would know, from the outside, what’s actually happening inside.
Megan Kamerick: I definitely didn’t know. I’ve driven by that spot so many times. It’s in a generic looking strip mall next to a boot store. But I guess that’s by design, Andy?
Andy Lyman: It could be. I know some folks are concerned about security, but I think it also provides some normalcy to patients as well. Our tour guide that day was Dominic Garcia, the director of retail operations for Reynold Greenleaf and Associates. Listeners may remember that some dispensaries are under a management company. It may be a little confusing, but Reynold Greenleaf and Associates, a management company, manages R. Greenleaf, a cannabis producer.
Megan Kamerick: Dominic gave us a tour of an R. Greenleaf location, in sort of midtown Albuquerque. There’s a counter with sales associates to help patients. And behind them is a small window to a room where the product is actually prepared. That room is locked and not open to the public – or to us. Employees hand the cannabis products through that window to the sales associates out front. Dominc says it’s a little bit like Walgreen’s or CVS.
Dominic Garcia: So, this particular dispensary, for us, is, we have a pharmacy model. So, essentially, it’d be, you know, what you would think of a traditional pharmacy. Patients come in, they can have a consultation with any of our peer educators and be able to help determine what medicine is best for them. With that being said, we do offer, our menu, which is live. It’s got, it’s pretty much real time, also. It’s on about a five-minute delay, if that. And that does connect to our mobile app, I’m sorry, our website that you can look mobily on. And it does have rates and what’s available for any particular clinic.
Megan Kamerick: That menu he’s talking about is a huge electronic board hanging behind the sales counter. It sort of looks like a fast food menu. There are a handful of giant digital monitors, which Dominic said are updated in real time… Meaning that when they sell the last of a particular product, the system updates and takes the product off the screen.
Andy Lyman: We asked Dominic to describe what happens when a first time patient first walks in the door.
Dominic Garcia: So really, we just like to open the door with, what do you know about cannabis? A lot of folks, you know, they might have dabbled in the 70s or 80s. And, this might be, you know, a return to the use for pain relief. The science of medical cannabis has come a long way. It’s not the same kind of cannabis I was probably privy to when I was in college, that sort of thing. It’s a lot more potent and it’s just a valuable medicine for a lot of folks.
Andy Lyman: Is there, is there any sort of experimenting, meaning that… because, if somebody hasn’t used it for 20 years, maybe you want to try a little bit of this or try some different levels of THC, the CBD?
Dominic Garcia: Yeah, you know, a lot of times also the peer educator will ask about what their ailment is and then from there, they can help educate them from a point of also being a patient. So, again, none of our folks are really like nurse practitioners or anything to that effect. But, if someone has anxiety, they might be interested in indica. If someone just has, you know, motivation or they need help with focus, they might be leaning toward sativa. So really, it’s just about asking those questions and being able to help find that right product. Again, we always like especially with edibles or some concentrates, start slow, because you can always add more and you don’t ever want to get completely couch-locked or have an anxiety attack from, just over-consuming.
Megan Kamerick: As Dominic was showing us around the dispensary lobby, I spoke with Maria Chavez, who had just purchased some cannabis. She’s been a patient for 10 years.
Maria Chavez: Yes, and it helps my diabetes and my neuropathy. And I play basketball for the senior league. So, the doctor can’t believe that this stuff helped me play. I mean, I run and everything. I stay in shape.
Megan Kamerick: How old are you? Can I ask?
Maria Chavez: I‘ll be 73. 10/10.
Megan Kamerick: Wow. So what kind of product do you use?
Maria Chavez: I use Sativa and then I use Indica at night to relax me.
Megan Kamerick: And are you smoking it? Are you ingesting it?
Maria Chavez: I smoke it.
Megan Kamerick: And what started this… this is ten years ago. So, tell me about how you started that process or that journey?
Maria Chavez: Because I was hurting a lot and I was working. And then, it really got to me. And then my hands were bad because I worked at digital and then at intel. So, when I started smoking, it really helped. So that did it.
Megan Kamerick: Another thing I noticed right away is just the huge variety of products available and how each is designed to treat something different. This is light years away from the days of using a crushed beer can to make a bong.
Andy Lyman: And so, these here are…
Megan Kamerick: … chocolate bars.
Andy Lyman: … and over here is what you’d call it, vape pen. So, it’s an oil liquid.
Dominic Garcia: Some of our edibles and topicals. So, we do offer salves, you know, for joint pain, headache rollers, suppositories.
Andy Lyman: I think maybe one thing that people don’t realize is that topicals maybe have a different, quite a different effect than consuming it or ingesting it, right?
Dominic Garcia: A lot of it, again, it’s probably not going to, have the, I use air quotes, high effect. Some topicals don’t really cross the blood barrier. So, it’s really just about the anti-inflammatory aspects of it.
Megan Kamerick: And is that, were those suppositories or were those injectibles?
Dominic Garcia: No, they’re suppositories. So, again, for, any chronic pain, lower back pain, it’s a wonderful product.
Megan Kamerick: So, what have been some of the innovations with the medical cannabis program, in terms of different forms people can use? I had no idea there were so many… (laughs)
Dominic Garcia: Yeah, I mean, I think it’s constantly evolving. And then it also, can vary based on how people like to consume and their tolerance levels. You do build up tolerance, so someone might you know, become a wax user, where there are different textures, also in that. So, it might be more like a sugar sauce or sometimes it could be almost like a brittle, which we call a shatter. So, little pieces broken off and then placed into a rig and smoked that way. So, it’s a little bit more intense, a little bit quicker on the uptake. But again, it just depends on where you are in your cannabis therapy.
Andy Lyman: Do you know what’s the, maybe we’ve already talked about this, the bigger seller for R. Greenleaf. I mean is it flowers?
Dominic Garcia: So, yeah, flowers. Flowers are, you know, our bread and butter, if you will. (undecipherable)
Andy Lyman: And what the patient didn’t really get into when we talked to her, but I think maybe part of that is that it’s… and you mentioned hitting it fast. Hitting you faster, right. And an edible is going to take as long as your body takes to digest it, right?
Dominic Garcia: Right, and typically an edible is going to be processed through the liver, where the traditional flower might be through… Will be through the lungs. So, you know, edible can be a little bit more potent sometimes because the whole thing is being processed. You know, if you’re smoking, you do lose some on the exhale.
Andy Lyman: But we don’t really have… we, as a society, don’t have like an equivalent to having a drink. Like, you can’t take a drink and it hits you like alcohol does. It’s going to take probably an hour or so…
Dominic Garcia: And, you know, if you have a full stomach versus an empty stomach and the amount that you consume.
Megan Kamerick: It’s not like, here, take these two Ibuprofen, it’s got two hundred milligrams each. It’s totally subjective… seems subjective.
Dominic Garcia: Well, it’s a little trial and error at the beginning, but once you start finding what medicines are working best for you, again, you can always add more, start slow. That’s a great piece of advice is just, you can always, you know, add more to it. But once you, you know, if you’re overmedicated, sometimes to just wait it out. You know what your tolerance levels are.
Megan Kamerick: We weren’t able to get a tour of the back room where they actually dispense the cannabis. And instead of going to see a grow operation, we decided to go take a look at how plant material becomes extracts and edibles.
Jennifer Merryman: Oh, sure, this is our main building. This is our kitchen, and we’re going through our locked ‘side b’ entry. We have several different entries for employees……
Andy Lyman: That’s Jennifer Merryman. She and her husband Eric own and operate Mountain Top Extracts, which is a medical cannabis manufacturing company.
Megan Kamerick: It’s another unassuming facility tucked away in the middle of an industrial area.
Jennifer Merryman: And, I’ll grab Eric…
Andy Lyman: You have a very compelling story about how you got into this industry. You kind of have a personal family story…
Eric Merryman: Five or six years ago, my mother was diagnosed with stage four fallopian tube cancer, out of the blue. All I ever remember about her health was she was always in shape, walked, hiked regularly, ate well. So, this was quite a shock, of course, to all of us. We had always been raised kind of with alternative medicines. And so, we did a lot of different treatments with her. I had never heard about cannabis for the treatment of cancer or the treatment of the residual issues that come with, you know, people on chemo or radiation therapy. At that point, she had not done any chemotherapy. My son, who is living in Arizona at the time, called me and asked me if I had heard of a product called Rick Simpson’s oil, and I hadn’t. And he said, “well, you know, you should you should do some research into it, dad. This is something that might help my nana.” And so, I began that research.
Megan Kamerick: Eric said he went through the process to legally grow cannabis for his mother and began experimenting with what seemed to help her and started learning about how to extract beneficial substances from the plant. And, so began Eric’s journey into the world of cannabis extraction.
Eric Merryman: Once we got the genetics and started cultivating the high CBD content strains, then it was like, “OK, so how do I make this into a highly concentrated form of medicine?” Then, that opens up the whole world to extractions. And, there’s several forms of extractions that exist and their use is common in our industry. My focus was on the preservation of those cannabinoids, terpenes and flavonoids from the moment that I harvested that plant until I put that oil into the capsule. My research in different extraction methods and solvents led me to light hydrocarbon solvents, which are, in our industry, we’re using butane, propane and isobutanes. Once I made that decision, then it opened up a whole other world in regards to the safety of that process, you know? And what does that take for me to make this medicine at home in a safe manner? So, not only the integrity of the medicine, but integrity of the extraction process. That’s where mountain top started.
Megan Kamerick: Did you have a background in chemistry or anything? What was your background?
Eric Merryman: (laughs) I do not have a background in chemistry. I’ve been a, primarily, a general contractor, tool bags on type of contractor, all of my life. I’ve always been very interested in renewable fuels and renewable energies and so about, I want to say it’s probably been 10 years ago, became very interested in biofuels, specifically biodiesel. I went to some classes up in Denver, both at, kind of a small cooperative level, as well as a full scale commercial-level, biofuels operation, because I had the intent of setting up a biodiesel facility here in New Mexico.
Andy Lyman: Listeners may have caught Eric’s comments about safety, particularly with the extraction process. Several years back, employees of a Santa Fe-based manufacturer were severely injured in an explosion. One of the ways to extract THC from plant material is by using butane, which of course is highly flammable. Several weeks ago, there was a fire and more injuries at that same Santa Fe manufacturing site. To be clear, as we’re recording this, the second instance is still under investigation.
(repetitive drumming noise)
Megan Kamerick: Why is it so loud?
Eric Merryman: That’s an industrial grade solvent recovery pump. So, it’s just got a big motor, big diaphragm pistons in it, and…
Megan Kamerick: That’s why he has earplugs…
Eric Merryman: Yes. (laughs)
Megan Kamerick: Eric says he worked closely with state officials to come up with a safe way to do those extractions.
Eric Merryman: Mountain Top Extracts was the first class one, division one, approved in the state for indoor light hydrocarbon extraction. And what that means was, prior to us, everyone was required to do light hydrocarbon extraction outdoors. My argument to that, to the DOH was, how can you hold me to a food grade standard, but yet make me do this outside? Like, where else in the food industry does this exist? What happened was, I actually had to get involved with construction industries division, which is now primarily the LP gas division of the state, is the one that inspects light hydrocarbon extraction facilities. I don’t know if they do ethanol or CO2, but I do know for certain that they do the light hydrocarbon inspections. And, what happened was the department of health had actually contacted the state and said, “Hey, we need some help here. We don’t know what we’re looking at. You know, you guys have a gas division. We would really like your help.” And so, it was perfect timing, because the first explosion in Santa Fe had just happened, like within six or nine months of us getting our license. And so, I was able to sit down with the state and actually help create the rules and regs for light hydrocarbon extraction in the state. And, the way that we worked together on that was, I had contacted the fire marshal out of Denver, which at that point in time, Denver had the highest standards in the industry for light hydrocarbon extraction. And so, the fire marshal sent me over those standards. And, we sat down with the state. And we went through them and we said, “You know, these are good.” And so, between us, we came up with a really high standards for light hydrocarbon extraction, because there’s no reason that an explosion of that nature should occur in this industry.
Andy Lyman: To put it plainly, this extraction process involves a solvent, usually butane. That strips the plant material of all of that stuff that cannabis patients want in their concentrated medicine. But here’s eric again explaining it in much greater detail.
Eric Merryman: Light hydrocarbon extractions occur by keeping your light hydrocarbons in a liquid state, which requires subzero temperatures. Once it’s in a liquid state, now it can act as a stripping solvent for the cannabinoids, terpenes and flavonoids, as well as waxes, lipids, things of that nature. Not so much chlorophylls, because light hydrocarbons are very non-polar solvent. Basically, what’s done is, in that liquid state, you’re saturating the cannabis material in a pressure-rated column, if you will, that has been packed full of cannabis. Once the desirables are removed from the plant matter, which the light hydrocarbons are still in liquid form, it gets transferred over into what’s called a distillation chamber. And, what that distillation chamber does, is now you’re going to convert that liquid back into a gas. And so, that you can incorporate what’s called a recovery pump that will then move that vapor back into the original solvent tank, under subzero temperatures that it came from. It’s called a closed-loop system. And so, it turns it back into liquid for storage into the solvent vessel. So then, once the solvent is distilled out of the oil, up to probably 90, 95, 98-percent of that solvent is distilled off in that distillation chamber. Then you have your oil, with a little bit of residual solvent in there, that you then pour out into pyrex dishes. The oil then goes into it into a heated vacuum chamber, and it remains in that heated vacuum chamber for anywhere from three to… Three days to five weeks, depending on the finished product that the client has requested. And what that does is, it does two things. It removes any and all residual solvent, if that’s what your desired product is. And, I say that because the state allows 800 parts per million of residual solvent to remain in the medicine. Colorado allows 5000 parts per million. Mountain top extracts allows zero parts per million. If your desired effect is zero parts per million residual solvent, then you’ll leave that in that vacuum chamber until that’s achieved.
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Andy Lyman: But, extraction is not the only thing they do at mountain top extracts. Operation Manager Aaron Cochola walks us through a packaging room and shows us the variety of different types of derivatives they use.
Aaron Cochola: Yeah, and then one last thing, you can kind of see the differences between, this would be, kind of, considered a cooking oil. So, this is an edible oil. As you can see, it’s a lot darker. Has a lot more of the fats and the lipids that eric was talking about earlier. This stuff is a lot more beneficial to ingest, you know, versus inhaling.
Megan Kamerick: What would you put that in?
Aaron Cochola: Into a gummy. So, this would be used to create the gummy, the hard candies and the lollies, or a topical. Something that would be either ingested or applied topically.
Megan Kamerick: Aaron also showed us the results of that extraction method eric told us about.
Aaron Cochola: It’s crystals. It’s THC-a crystals, essentially, being formed in a pool of terpenes. So, it’s a good mix of cannabinoids, for sure. But, it’s all about colorance, color gradients, as far as terpenes have different colors to them as well. So, the different grade of, or the different amount of terpenes, and the ratios of them also affect the colors. It’s all connected, really.
Megan Kamerick: So, you’re putting that in and it forms into crystals eventually?
Aaron Cochola: We do, under pressure. So, like Eric had mentioned, using that heated vaccum. So, pressure forms diamonds.
Megan Kamerick: So, what do you with the crystals?
Aaron Cochola: Smoke them, inhale them.
Megan Kamerick: Oh, ok.
Aaron Cochola: So, this is, everything would literally go into a small little glass container. And then, using a very small amounts, you would vaporize it, essentially.
Megan Kamerick: Oh, ok. What flavor are those?
Employee: These are green apple.
(candies dropped onto a tray)
Andy Lyman: And then there’s the kitchen, where Aaron says they can produce about 4-thousand edibles a day.
Aaron Cochola: As you can see here, that we use candy machines for filling the hard candies, the lollies and the gummies. We have just tons and tons of molds that we fill, so pretty much just jamming two of these machines all day long.
Andy Lyman: Can you tell us, because we haven’t done this yet, all the types of products that you guys manufacture here, from just extracted material to edibles, all that other stuff? What do you guys make here?
Aaron Cochola: Yeah, so we actually, coming out of the kitchen, we do gummies, hard candies, lollipops. We also make salves, tinctures too as well, like topicals. We are also creating a lot of concentrates. So, boy, we could go down the list of that, but all the different consistencies that you would do, like dabs, the sugar wax, the diamond sauce, the diamonds, vape cartridges too, as well.
Andy Lyman: I want to touch on one thing a lot of people probably don’t realize and likely never considered… Mountain top extracts only has a license to manufacture, whereas some other companies are more vertically integrated.
Megan Kamerick: What that means is that companies like mountain top, stand alone manufacturers, rely on supply from producers who are licensed by the state to grow cannabis. Then, Mountain Top sends the finished product back to the producer and onto a dispensary shelf.
Andy Lyman: Eric says he’d like to see a change in licensing that would allow manufacturers to grow their own cannabis.
Eric Merryman: So, having control from seed to finished product is extremely critical. I don’t know what percentage, but I suspect that most people have gotten into this industry for the fast money. There are some that haven’t made the decision based on that, and I really respect those companies and those individuals, because it takes a lot more to do it right. If I’m relying upon a cultivator to supply me with material, I don’t know what their objectives are, meaning that, I don’t know why they got into the business. I don’t know why they’re doing what they’re doing to wind up with this finished product, to supply me with to make oil, to feed into the dispensaries. If it’s about how many crops can I get in a year, how many pounds per plant in that crop can I get in a year, and that’s all their focus, then it’s highly likely that there’s going to be contaminants in that plant material.
Megan Kamerick: Eric says Mountain Top takes an extra step to examine plant material before the extraction process even starts.
Eric Merryman: We do quality control in a couple of different ways. The first thing that we do is, when we receive product, we put it under a microscope and we do a grading system and that will immediately tell us, how this product’s been treated, at least from the cultivation and harvest standpoint. It will tell us if there’s molds or mildews in there. It will not tell us if there’s pesticides or heavy metals. The way we do quality control on water-based pesticides and heavy metals is in a proprietary filtering system that we’ve developed here. Some of the oil-based treatments are hard to identify. Actually, almost impossible to identify just by looking at the plant material under the microscope. There’s some things that may hint towards something was done to this that doesn’t seem right. And, that will typically have to do with the coloring of the trichomes, maybe some slight surface-coating, just some things that typically don’t relate to a healthy plant or harvest. What we’ve had happen a couple of times was, after the initial extraction, you can see, basically a rainbow sheen on top of the oil, which typically relates to a petroleum-based product. If and when that happens, we will immediately contact the cultivator. We won’t release that medicine.
Megan Kamerick: It seems really problematic. Like, how do you… Do you contract with very specific cultivators? Like, your supply chain seems to be key to your profit?
Eric Merryman: Absolutely. That’s one of the things about not allowing manufacturers to cultivate for their own extraction, which we are one of the very few. There may be one other state in the union that doesn’t allow the manufacturers to cultivate. So, yes, we’re completely subjective to the cultivators of the state. We’ve been in the business long enough to know the top tier cultivators, if you will, or at least those not adding the petroleum treatments, the soil treatments that can become systemic to the plant. So, it’s not just your topical or foliar applications. There’s stuff uptaking, systemically, by this plant, that wind up in the finished product. So, those things are really critical to us. Unfortunately, we have zero control over what they’re using on their plants or what they’re communicating with us in regards to the cultivation and or treatment in those plants.
Megan Kamerick: That’s crazy.
Andy Lyman: Marketing is also a challenge for companies like mountain top. They can’t sell their products directly to patients, so Aaron says they have to market to the producers instead.
Aaron Cochola: We have to convince them to purchase, to turn their valuable material into this product and then put it into their store to try and sell to those patients. So, it requires us creating promo material, product cards and informing their tenders, bud tenders of what the product is. So, then they can actually translate that, then, to the patient. So, when the patient says, “I saw something on Instagram or I heard my friend has this,” they can come in and ask about it and, kind of, try and get that relay of information. Empowering tenders and bud tenders has been probably one of our main focuses, as well with the education material, you know, kind of giving them a little more power to communicate with patients.
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Andy Lyman: Growing Forward is a collaboration between New Mexico PBS and New Mexico Political Report, thanks to a grant from the New Mexico Local News Fund.
Megan Kamerick: Our producers are Kevin McDonald and Bryce Dix. Bryce also does the editing and Kevin is Executive Producer at NMPBS. Matthew Reichbach is the Editor at New Mexico Political Report.
Andy Lyman: Join us next time as we wrap things up and discuss some of the issues we didn’t get to so far in season 1. We’ll also lay the groundwork for the upcoming debate over legalizing recreational-use cannabis in New Mexico during next year’s legislative session.
Megan Kamerick: Be sure to subscribe to “Growing Forward” wherever you get your podcasts. And, while you’re there, be sure to leave us a review. It really helps.
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